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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
 Verfasst am: 02.06.2006, 00:09 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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I haven't tried it yet, and I would strongly recommend not trying it on your main install.
All I would do is comment out the sid stuff in /etc/apt/sources.list
to manually upgrade specific packages you'd just uncomment out those lines for that update.
But you'd always have to test each upgrade carefully to make sure the sid package didn't try to pull in all of kde or xorg or whatever.
I'll test it one of these days, but not yet, too much stuff is happening with kde and xorg to settle down yet I think.
I'm thinking a while after kde 4 comes out and is in testing maybe. |
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Read more on dist-upgrades using du-fixes-h2.sh script.
New: rdiff-backup script
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 02.06.2006, 06:08 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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For anyone who has used the script in the past, I changed the name, so you'd need to get the new version, it's called du-fixes-h2.sh
It also now checks for updates of itself before proceeding. Make sure it's version 1.5 or greater for that feature, and the latest du fixes.
You can get it here. I've tested it a few times with the latest fixes and everything had dist-upgraded fine.
http://techpatterns.com/forums/about736.html |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 02.06.2006, 16:53 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2006
Beiträge: 185
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thanks gardyloo and h2 for your rdiff-backup exclusions list 
I looked at duplicity again (it clearly says it's not stable and dirvish looks more painful than it's worth, so I'll probably just use rdiff-backup.
gardyloo: you said you used an external usb drive and I do the same. Is yours formatted w/ NTFS like mine is? Or did you put a Linux filesystem on it? I'm wondering if rdiff-backup works if you put the backup files on a non-Linux filesystem (whether it'll maintain the security attributes of the files, etc. which is why I've been using tar up to this point)... |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 02.06.2006, 19:23 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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you can't write to ntfs from linux safely.
You can't make files > 4 gig in fat32, so for dependable backup, use ext3 with a windows ext2 driver
this one is well regarded:
http://www.fs-driver.org/
Note, from the faqs on that site, if you try using an external drive with more than one partition you will probably run into errors.
Another very cheap and easy way to go is to just get a removable harddrive tray and just mount and unmount that.
I'm using firewire currently, but as soon as I get around to it I'll switch to a removable internal harddrive, that's faster, and more reliable long term. |
_________________
Read more on dist-upgrades using du-fixes-h2.sh script.
New: rdiff-backup script
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 02.06.2006, 20:14 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 14. Apr 2006
Beiträge: 60
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Hi, Kenyee,
Zitat:
gardyloo: you said you used an external usb drive and I do the same. Is yours formatted w/ NTFS like mine is? Or did you put a Linux filesystem on it? I'm wondering if rdiff-backup works if you put the backup files on a non-Linux filesystem (whether it'll maintain the security attributes of the files, etc. which is why I've been using tar up to this point)...
My external USB drive has several ext3 partitions on it, as h2 said. I've successfully backed up ext2, ext3, and reiserfs file systems to the ext3-formatted partitions on this drive (and on another over a LAN). I could try backing up to an NTFS partition just for grins, but I'm a little hesitant. Most sites claim that NTFS can't be written to successfully from linux; a few claim that it's really no problem, and that the problems are overstated and have been dealt with for years. I'm not entirely sure who to believe, but I'd rather err on the safe side, and back up consistently to something I'm pretty sure will work, and leave backing up to an NTFS partition for experimentation. If you need to resize your NTFS, or put another filesystem on that external USB drive, and need an open-source program to do it, I'd use GParted. Their latest livecd version seems a little flaky with xwindowing (I usually have to reboot a couple of times and end up using the lowest requirements -- xvesa, which is fine for a quick partition change), but is getting better all the time, and things like copying and moving partitions are getting more and more supported by that project.
I've also tried backing up an NTFS filesystem onto an ext3 one, using rdiff-backup running under Cygwin in WindowsXP. That invariably crashes when getting to system files which are being used by Windows, but it successfully backs up the data which resides on the XP partitions. I haven't yet tried backing up an NTFS filesystem from a running linux system (as from a dual-boot into Kanotix, or from the liveCD). It might work all right, but links might be screwed up. I think that the rdiff-backup developers are working on such things, but am not entirely sure what the status is.
In short, I haven't tried doing what you propose. If you get it to work, great! Let us know! But compatibility between the *nix filesystems and NTFS is really lacking, and I'm wary of losing my important files to something silly. I'd do what h2 says, and at the very least, create an ext3 system on which to house your backups. It's worked for me.
Regards,
gardyloo
P.S. Not that anyone needs such advice, but my external drive is just a regular SATA hard drive (a Seagate, I think), as might go in a desktop, which is shoved into a cheapo KingWin hdd enclosure. I've been very happy with its size and capabilities. It seems much less flaky than the pre-made external drives from, say, Maxtor (which I've used a lot, too), and MUCH less expensive. Those "pre-housed" drives have one advantage: they usually come with Retrospect, which is useful for Windows systems; they also sometimes come with USB AND firewire connections. But I'm happy with my rdiff-backup! |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 02.06.2006, 23:50 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2006
Beiträge: 185
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| Thanks, guys. I was afraid of that. I think I'll tar/gzip the rdiff-backup directory and then save off the tar file by sharing it to my Windows machine. That external drive contains Acronis TrueImage images as well, so I can't just switch it to ext3...repartitioning using Partition Magic might be ok though... |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 03.06.2006, 02:24 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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As often as I have stuffed MY installation, I'm going to purchase a backup drive for safety's sake. I just posted in the hardware section of the forum regarding this, which was very helpful. I'm glad to hear that I can put multiple partitions on it without problems (other than my ignorance about doing so). But I need to get into the habit of backing up consistently, because when screw-ups occur as they invariably do, I spend a crazy amount of time correcting things from a live-cd, which is a major pain in the *** & makes my wife look at me weird like "you did it AGAIN, eh?" .
h2: said:
Zitat:
Another very cheap and easy way to go is to just get a removable harddrive tray and just mount and unmount that.
And I have to ask: What is a removable HD tray? How is it connected? Sorry for my ignorance, kurt |
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illegitimati non carborundum
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 03.06.2006, 03:27 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2006
Beiträge: 185
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 03.06.2006, 19:24 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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No, don't use firewire, it's unreliable for large data transfers, use a real ide or sata tray, like cru dataport v [that's at nerds.net]. I use a firewire drive, in a full sized external enclosure, and it sucks. I did a lot of research on this stuff for a client's job, and if you are going to chose one option, firewire external or internal removable drive trays, ide or sata, chose the drive tray option, especially the sata drive tray option. The cost of getting the frame/carrier + sata drive will be about the same as buying a junk all in one preassembled one like maxtor or western digital sell.
cru is the best, it's 10 times better than the cheap junk that other companies put out for about 1/2 the price, that cheap stuff always breaks, has data transfer errrors, fans die, whatever.
SATA is a better choice for the tray and hard drive because sata is truly hotswappable, your results will vary with ide, although linux is much more robust handling mount/unmount operations than windows.
Since the actual drive tray pulls out after you unmount the drive, you can jsut get more trays for each hard drive, that lets you have backup drives, test drives, extra data drives, whatever you want.
And if you mount the drives by label, not by /dev/hda or whatever, linux will know what to do with each drive in each tray.
For maximum flexibility, get this one:
http://www.thenerds.net/index.php?page= ... 1155000000
shop around, you can usually get about 1/2 the price at online parts stores
<added> Found the full price/inventory list, at the nerds.net. poorly designed website, hard to find stuff, but good prices. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 03.06.2006, 20:14 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 16. Aug 2004
Beiträge: 1905
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I recommend against parallel ATA frames, the whole protocol is not hot swappable and you might seriously damage your computer by doing so. USB-/ firewire is not that reliable as it should be, but still a whole lot better than swapping p-ata devices (regardless how).
S-ATA on the other hand might be an interesting option, not only does it support hot swapping natively (you have to umount of course), it also doesn't loose performance to the pci - USB/ firewire bidge (external S-ATA enclosures are slowly appearing in the wild). |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 03.06.2006, 20:30 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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yes, hot swapping ide is quite entertaining, it requires a special controller card if mobo doesn't handle it. But I'm glad you mentioned that, it's an important thing to understand, you can't hotswap standard ide in most mobos.
There's no issue at all with the ide trays if you turn them on before boot however, and turn them off after shutdown. That's with standard mobo ide connections.
However, if you want the best of both worlds, you can get the cru sata drive enclosure, then get the cru sata+ide tray, that converts ide to sata, which will work around the issue, since it's a sata connection.
And, the sad truth is, having just priced it, you're better off going sata all the way, since you can buy a new sata 160 gig drive for about $70, give or take a few dollars.
But long term, might as well just go with sata, it's faster anyway. And ide hard drives are going away now.
Zitat:
it also doesn't loose performance to the pci - USB/ firewire bidge (external S-ATA enclosures are slowly appearing in the wild).
And boy, do they lose performance, let me tell you, transfer rates if sata is also running on pci bus, which older sata does, to firewire drive, or any pci card mounted drive, plummets. New sata, and all ide, does not have this issue as far as I know.
Those external sata enclosures, by the way, so far as I've seen only support pci-e mobos, but that's a great option if you have a new mobo, but still not cheap, those will drop in price. But will require a pci-e sata controller card in any case, same pci problem. The trays are the cleanest solution I know of. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 03.06.2006, 21:11 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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My Kanotix is currently installed on an 40G ATA Western Digital.
At newegg.com I can buy this SATA HD: HITACHI Deskstar 7K80 HDS728080PLA380(0A30356) 80GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive for $38.99,
or an ATA HD:
Western Digital Caviar WD400BB 40GB 7200 RPM IDE Ultra ATA100 Hard Drive for $41.99.
The Hitachi SATA drive is double the capacity & cheaper, so that looks like it might be the best choice. I don't know why I would need to remove a drive so the cru dataport v link that h2 provided may be overkill for my backup purposes. I just want to have something I can fall back on in case I bork my current install. That way I'll feel more comfortable about DU-ing and other experimenting once I learn how to properly backup & restore. Would installing an internal HD & connecting it with a USB cable do this? Again, I apologize for my ignorance. Thanks, Kurt |
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illegitimati non carborundum
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 03.06.2006, 21:19 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2006
Beiträge: 185
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For external usb/firewire enclosures, the best are MacAlly's:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi ... amp;Go.y=0
I had a cheapy plasticky one before that and it was slow and croaked within a year (doing only monthly backups).
I've transferred a lot of data on firewire w/o problems (USB 2.0, despite being theoretically faster, has so much overhead that Firewire400 is muchhhhh faster for backups. Firewire800 is nearly as fast as an IDE connection if you have a Firewire800 port on your system). That said, if you have an eSATA port on your computer, or can plug in a tray w/ a SATA drive, that's full speed and low overhead. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 03:42 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389
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Kurt, everyone is talking about a removable drive option. From what you say, your needs are much simpler - you just need to add another hard drive to your computer. If your motherboard can take SATA, then get the SATA. If it is an older machine, like 3 or 4 years old, chances are it cannot. In that case, get an ordinary ATA IDE drive. I'm sure there are cheaper ones than the one you found. If you want SATA and connect via USB, then you need to buy an additional enclosure that can accept the drive you buy, and have a USB connection. Booting off the USB drive can sometimes be problematic, I think. Alternatively you can transfer your data to the USB drive, carve out another partition on your main drive and use that as your alternative system.
I think there are also PCI cards that allow you to connect SATA directly, which might be a better option. I could be wrong... I don't use SATA. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 05:26 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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| stryder: Thanks for the reply--that answers my questions. My computer is less that 3 yrs old & I have 3 more USB slots avaliable to use. I won't be booting off of the drive, but just using it as a storage medium. I also have a 9G partition that's empty & reiser formatted. As far as transfering data goes, could I also just use the cp command to move data there? Having another HD would have some advantages though I think. Thanks again. |
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illegitimati non carborundum
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 07:20 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389
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| As long as the partition/drive is mounted properly you can cp anything anywhere, especially as root. In fact if in livecd you mount your main partition (say hda1) and your 9gig partition, say hda2 to /hda1 and /hda2, then (as root or sudo) cp -a /hda1/* /hda2 should transfer your whole system over. Then you add some entries to your menu.lst to have a new pointer to your hda2 system, comment out initrd, and you have 2 systems. It's that simple. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 08:48 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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| Wow, thanks alot for that information. That certainly is simpler than some other things I've been reading. I'm printing that out to add to my notebook of how-to's. I don't trust my memory as much as I used to. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 11:19 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 09. Aug 2004
Beiträge: 121
Wohnort: Brisbane Australia
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stryder hat folgendes geschrieben::
.. then (as root or sudo) cp -a /hda1/* /hda2 should transfer your whole system over. ...
Actually you should use "cp -ax /media/hda1/* /media/hda2/". The -x is important as it stops other file systems such as /proc/, /media/*/*, etc being copied. This simple procedure does work as I have used it to move my existing installation to new partitions and new disks. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 11:21 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389
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Oh, I forgot to mention, before you boot your second system you need to edit /etc/fstab (in your second system, ie /hda2/etc/fstab) using a text editor as root and change the root mount. For example, you should change
/dev/hda1 (assuming this is your main system partition) / reiserfs defaults etc...
to
/dev/hda2 / reiserfs defaults etc...
and if you had /dev/hda2 mounted elsewhere then that will have to be commented out. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 11:29 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389
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markb hat folgendes geschrieben::
Actually you should use "cp -ax /media/hda1/* /media/hda2/". The -x is important as it stops other file systems such as /proc/, /media/*/*, etc being copied. This simple procedure does work as I have used it to move my existing installation to new partitions and new disks.
Ah, that's useful. I normally copy over systems that I am NOT booted in (which was why I said "in livecd") so that I don't copy contents of other mounted partitions accidentally. That should take care of /proc/ right? |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 20:00 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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just to be clear, while cp I assume will work as long as you don't have mounted stuff, and of course, if you do it from another partition or the livecd, it should work fine [although I don't know about filepermissions and all that being maintained], the key difference between cp, which is a blanket approach, and rdiff-backup, is that rdiff-backup will backup intelligently, first time run, it backup up everything, next time it backup up only files that have been changed. So backups are much faster the more often you do them.
For stuff like dist-upgrades, this is worth thinking about. There are many other features of real backup programs, no matter which one you use, that makes them highly preferred, although it's hard to argue with the sheer simplicity of cp, lol.
The removable hard drive tray might sound complicated if you've never used it, but it's not. It's actually the simplest removable backup solution you can use in my opinion, and by far the fastest, most stable, and most reliable.
And with prices like > 50 for a hard drive, and about $50 for a sata tray plus container, that's the same or less as most usb or firewire units.
But of course, usb and firewire has the advantage of being portable to other machines, which is a good thing as well. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 04.06.2006, 23:13 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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| Am I correct in assuming using rdiff-backup you should still add entries to the /boot/grub/menu.lst & edit /etc/fstab? |
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illegitimati non carborundum
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 01:20 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2005
Beiträge: 454
Wohnort: NYC/NJ Area
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h2,
Excellent work on the script.
I have not been around in a bit and forgot about holding off on the dist-upgrade a few months back when told too and lost graphics.
I waited a little longer....today,to try and fix.I used your script...fixed some pakages that were holding me up/back and got graphics.There were something like well over 900 pakages that needed upgradeing not to mention the kernel was way outdated.This is a 2005.4 install.
Anyway,after proceeding on with your script,I believe it was the xorg7-fixup part that I had lost graphics again.
errors are;
cannot locate file for xorg-driver-fglrx,pakage may need to be fix manually...whatever that means.
Also trying different things I got fglrx-driver needs reinstall but no archive found....that landed me the previous error.I believe I got that on graphics driver install.
Radeon grphics is what I need.
I wish I left all alone when I got the gui back and was at my desktop,but I went back to init 3 and proceeded on with the script.
I know its not borked beyond recognition,I just need some guidence.
Since I have not been around for quite some time I will spend the night looking back through months of threads related.
Thanks. |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 03:26 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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Ironwalker, I don't use radeon stuff following the good advice I got here, so testing the radeon parts of those scripts is their weak point. I added a note to that affect on the script to alert users that they are on their own so to speak if they are using radeon.
However, I checked irc:
"fglrx" is (#1) update-scripts-kanotix.sh : [Alt] + [Ctrl] + [F1] & login as root ; install-fglrx-debian.sh, and (#2) use -r option to remove modelines while installing (to fix out of sync errors)
Translation: go into init 3 as root; run this command: install-fglrx-debian.sh -r
Doesn't seem to have many bad issues, just do that and see if it fixes it.
Radeon has been consistently problematic for people, but I haven't followed that at all.
My guess is that yes it can be fixed, fairly easily.
I doubt it's the xorg stuff that broke it, that's just kano's initial xorg fix, plus reinstalling xorg parts to make sure they are there, that's all that happens.
If you got that error on the attempt to install the radeon graphics driver, the last step that is, it's probably using an out of date radeon installer, that script grabs the installer from kanotix.com, but now the installer comes standard in kanotix, but I'm not sure if it's will be installed by itself on 2005-4, I believe not.
I've tested this one on many different boxes, all either nvidia or neutral older cards/chipsets, and it works fine, but radeon is definitely a challenge. Luckily for you, kano uses radeon on his box so it's possible you can get some better quality help on that specific issue.
If you tried fglrx driver install and got the no archive found, it just means it's an out of date script I think.
Try to simply run this command: install-fglrx-debian.sh
directly, my suspicion is that the script that was in kanotix is slightly different, I checked, it is, but I don't know the differences.
Again, far more people had problems with radeon over the last months than with nvidia, and I haven't really followed the radeon stuff at all since I can't test it.
<added>I updated the script to now no longer use the version of fglrx install located on kanotix.com/files, but to use the local version, which wasn't present before, but now is.
<script update>Coming soon for those few people using the script: it will remember your selections and not repeat questions when you run the script next time, so you'll only have to answer each fix one time. Future versions of the script will retain the responses. With self updating script, that should make dist-upgrade slightly more safe for those people who don't feel like checking irc every day for new issues before doing du, or homepage of site. What can I say, I like scripting stuff, and shell scripting, though very limited, is fun. |
Zuletzt bearbeitet von h2 am 05.06.2006, 04:09 Uhr, insgesamt 3 Male bearbeitet
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: Updated today ( 01 June 06) and Xorg is stuffed
Verfasst am: 05.06.2006, 03:50 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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2radical:
Zitat:
Am I correct in assuming using rdiff-backup you should still add entries to the /boot/grub/menu.lst & edit /etc/fstab?
I'm not clear on the question, do you mean is the backup drive added in /etc/fstab? It is if you want it to be, doesn't have to be since if you use externel firewire or usb drives, hal/udev handles the mounting for you.
But you could make it less hit and miss I guess by adding a label for that drive in /etc/fstab, have to look into that.
but I think that's not what you are asking.
Rdiff backup is just a backup program that backs up where you tell it to, it doesn't have anything to do with etc/fstab or grub, but now I see what you are asking, no, it's not a cp type thing, it's a true backup, not a copy of the partition.
the rdiff backup data is not an image of your system in any way at all, it's just data, files, etc, with meta files to let rdiff know what the latest versions of your stuff is. That's another feature by the way, rdiff doesn't overwrite changed files in itself, it adds them to itself, which means you can roll back to earlier backups or file versions if you want.
It's very clever. cp is simply creating a copy of your current partition's data, that's it. And in cp, if you switched partitions to boot, though I wouldn't do that personally, I'd just overwrite the failed install with the copied partition's data.
It just gets confusing having two version of the os on the box, it's easier to say, ok, hda2 is my main system, for example, and hda5 is the backup, cp, rdiff-backup, makes no difference. Then if you need to restore, just use the livecd and restore the hda5 to the hda2 [partitions just given as examples]. It's much less confusing that way.
However, make absolutely certain that your cp uses the right command line options on restore and on backup to maintain all file ownership and permissions. Otherwise you're essentially totally scr$wed when you try to restore.
rdiff does this automatically. which to use just depends on you, rdiff takes reading some instructions, mike sheppard has them in faqs, that works fine on standard restores etc. You write the backup script one time and use that for backups, no thinking, which I like. I don't mind thinking one time to do something, but I don't like to have to remember stuff that might end up destroying my box every time I do something as simple as a backup. I'm lazy that way. |
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