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fatbloke
Titel: Hardware for backing up ?????  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.10.2006, 11:15 Uhr



Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
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Wohnort: 504945N, 01912W
I have determined to have some kind of proper strategy for backups.

I looked at various options, and settled on a suggestion from a mate of mine. That option was to take the elderly "box" he gave me (an old mitsubishi/Honeywell system - P2 400mhz, 64mb RAM, 6 gig hard drive), put Freenas on it and get a nice big EIDE/PATA hard drive and put that into the removable caddy he'd put into the box.

Now I've got that far - but still aren't happy. Theres various hurdles I'm finding hard to overcome, like how to use the Freenas properly.

I have the box connected, it shows a nice, convenient share icon on my desktop, I can search/surf round the backup drive, but when I look more closely I notice that the backup has all the directories from both my /home and my partners /home. If I then look into some of the directories I see just empty containers with no files. Whereas, some of them (like my music files for instance) are OK.

I've "hit the brickwall" on this. While "it" has been the cheapest possible option (only about £50 for the replacement storage hard drive) I'm finding it just a bit too far over my head.

So, I've looked around again, and it seems that the best option would be an external hard drive case (about another £50) for the backup drive, and make the elderly box an "IPcop" device elsewhere.

As you'd expect, all the external drive boxes/cases that I can find/locate, only mention bloody windows and/or MAC but nothing about linux support.

I'm not sure if this will be an issue as the external drive case/hdd, will be connected via ethernet and accessed (as far as I can tell) via a browser.

Can anyone see anything wrong with this idea and/or advise me on it please ?

regards

fatbloke
 
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dwa
Titel: RE: Hardware for backing up ?????  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.10.2006, 12:03 Uhr



Anmeldung: 26. Nov 2005
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For backups, I use a 250GB hard drive in a Bytecc ME-835 external enclosure:

http://www.byteccusa.com/product/enclosure/ME-835.htm

It has built-in fans for active cooling and works great. Plug in the USB cable and the external drive is detected as sda.

To backup /home I simply run:

rsync -av ~/ <backup-up directory>

...and once a week I run:

rsync -av --delete ~/ <back-up directory>

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Swynndla
Titel: RE: Hardware for backing up ?????  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.10.2006, 12:41 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Dez 2005
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I use a 2nd internal hard drive, and I use an automated rdiff-backup, so I don't have to remember anything. I think h2 uses an external usb drive, so he can back up more than one pc. Look at h2's rdiff-backup script. rdiff-backup is a front-end for rsync and has other powerful options too. dwa's backup method looks very nice and simple.

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fatbloke
Titel: Re: RE: Hardware for backing up ?????  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.10.2006, 22:50 Uhr



Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
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dwa hat folgendes geschrieben::
For backups, I use a 250GB hard drive in a Bytecc ME-835 external enclosure:
http://www.byteccusa.com/product/enclosure/ME-835.htm
It has built-in fans for active cooling and works great. Plug in the USB cable and the external drive is detected as sda.
To backup /home I simply run:
rsync -av ~/ <backup-up directory>
...and once a week I run:
rsync -av --delete ~/ <back-up directory>

Ah, someone else who's had similar ideas.

Thanks for the reply dwa, I'm not sure about whether I'd go for an identical device - I checked the link and it seems to support USB and Firewire.

I'm not a big fan of USB (although I don't have any spare USB ports anyway). I was actually looking at similar enclosures but with USB and LAN/Ethernet support - I've seen a couple locally (UK) that do that (not sure about built in fans) that should do the job. It would be nice if I could find one that support native linux file systems, but thats not really much of a problem is it (???).

It does look like "the way to go" though. I think I'll start having another look around.

Swynndla hat folgendes geschrieben::
I use a 2nd internal hard drive, and I use an automated rdiff-backup, so I don't have to remember anything. I think h2 uses an external usb drive, so he can back up more than one pc. Look at h2's rdiff-backup script. rdiff-backup is a front-end for rsync and has other powerful options too. dwa's backup method looks very nice and simple.

Also thanks for the response Swynndla, I could of course, do that. My only problem is that means a major system dismantle as the second hard drive slot means that I have to remove the CPU to get to it (is a cheap Medion system).

Plus, learning all about rdiff-backups etc is rather more than I was hoping to have to do (I don't really know enough about as to whether it's something I need to know or not).

If I keep my backups on a seperate (external) device, then if I re-install or change distros, with ethernet, it's far enough away from my main system not to loose all my personal data/music/etc etc - which is what I'm really trying to achieve.

I'm actually rather disappointed that using Freenas has proved too far over my head, as it would have "ticked all the boxes" for less money (even if the difference is only about £50). I just don't really want to have to start learning BSD as well. I've "got my plate full" enough with linux (not having any windows to fall back on if I screw the linux up etc etc).

Oh I don't know, maybe I'll just get an additional HDD as well - eventually.

regards

fatbloke
 
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Swynndla
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Hardware for backing up ?????  BeitragVerfasst am: 22.10.2006, 23:24 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Dez 2005
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wow. I still think the cheapest option is an internal hard drive. You dont' have to put it in the 2nd hdd slot if you can drill some holes for it on the side of the case.

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stryder
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Hardware for backing up ?????  BeitragVerfasst am: 23.10.2006, 00:36 Uhr



Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
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I don't see anything wrong with your idea. How are you doing your backup? Also perhaps you might want to check out h2's rdiff script.
 
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fatbloke
Titel: Re: RE: Re: RE: Hardware for backing up ?????  BeitragVerfasst am: 25.10.2006, 13:48 Uhr



Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
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stryder hat folgendes geschrieben::
I don't see anything wrong with your idea. How are you doing your backup? Also perhaps you might want to check out h2's rdiff script.

Well as it stands (with the Freenas box connected via ethernet) I just did drag and drop - but it took forever as I made the error of just copying the whole /home i.e. both my partner and my directories with the lost + found etc etc (which is about 48 gigs in total).

If/when I an external case I'll connect it via ethernet as well, so I'm presuming that it should work in a similar way.

I'm just off to see what info I can find about h2's rdiff script that you mentioned.

regards

fatbloke
 
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2radical
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 26.10.2006, 04:40 Uhr



Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
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Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
Swynndla: Another internal drive is what I have in mind, as I have an avaliable slot. However my plans to do so this month got derailed by plumbing problems. Imagine coming home from work to hear a funny hissing noise from the bathroom & finding an inch of water on the floor. I'm having to hemorrhage $ on that right now, but want to ask what's involved in an internal HD. Do I have to buy an additional ribbon cable, or do they come with HD's? I'm guessing I have to set it as slave on the back? I assume I'll have to manually edit fstab, & how? Or should I use an avaliable usb port?

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stryder
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 26.10.2006, 06:21 Uhr



Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
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fatbloke hat folgendes geschrieben::
Well as it stands (with the Freenas box connected via ethernet) I just did drag and drop - but it took forever as I made the error of just copying the whole /home i.e. both my partner and my directories with the lost + found etc etc (which is about 48 gigs in total).

If/when I an external case I'll connect it via ethernet as well, so I'm presuming that it should work in a similar way.

I'm just off to see what info I can find about h2's rdiff script that you mentioned.

regards

fatbloke

What freenas gives you, if I'm not mistaken, is storage space in a network while an external case or additional drive will bypass the need to switch on another computer to access that space. I just think that if the freenas box already works for you, why change?

Rdiff will be helpful because it does incremental backups, meaning after the initial backup, it will only backup files that have subsequently changed, thus speeding up the process. H2's rdiff script should help you automate things. You will probably need to know where the freenas drive is mounted or be able to mount it yourself.

BTW I don't use rdiff not h2's script (I just use tar) but from reading around and from h2's descriptions, rdiff seems a good way to go. You should read a bit though as there are certain recommended procedures (how many increments before a full backup, checking that your backup restores properly, etc). Also you need to be careful about permissions which might be why you were not able to copy some of your partner's files. Hopefully h2 will come by to help you further.
 
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fatbloke
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 26.10.2006, 23:35 Uhr



Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
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stryder hat folgendes geschrieben::

What freenas gives you, if I'm not mistaken, is storage space in a network while an external case or additional drive will bypass the need to switch on another computer to access that space. I just think that if the freenas box already works for you, why change?

Rdiff will be helpful because it does incremental backups, meaning after the initial backup, it will only backup files that have subsequently changed, thus speeding up the process. H2's rdiff script should help you automate things. You will probably need to know where the freenas drive is mounted or be able to mount it yourself.

BTW I don't use rdiff not h2's script (I just use tar) but from reading around and from h2's descriptions, rdiff seems a good way to go. You should read a bit though as there are certain recommended procedures (how many increments before a full backup, checking that your backup restores properly, etc). Also you need to be careful about permissions which might be why you were not able to copy some of your partner's files. Hopefully h2 will come by to help you further.

Yes, you may well be right stryder. Permissions might be the problem, though it's not just the files from my partners /home, but some of mine as well.

I seem to have to be root (even though I have my own login on the Freenas system) and even then it seems to be copying but not all of the stuff that I want to copy.

Plus, if I try to delete the backup and start again, theres some of the files that it won't allow me to delete.

Hence my thinking along the lines of dumping the Freenas option and just going with an external HDD/case. Though in itself, that seems to present a bit of a problem, because all of the cases that I can find locally (so to prevent any problems getting one with correct power/voltage for UK, or possible import/customs problems) seem to indicate little or nothing about linux support. Only windows and/or MacOS support.

Now I'm not entirely sure what that means in practice, because surely, if I got one of those and it's connected via ethernet, then it should be seen as removeable storage which I suspect might be very much easier than having to mess with accessing another system via shares.

I don't have anything thats that important (or mission critical). It's just that I hate it when I manage to kill it and it takes me the best part of a month to re-rip my music, and sort out missing address books etc etc. Which is why I'm starting to believe that the Freenas option might be OK for someone very much more skilled/competent/knowledgable than me, but in my instance rather unnecessary i.e overkill!

regards

fatbloke.
 
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Swynndla
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 27.10.2006, 00:33 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Dez 2005
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2radical, hard drives often don't come with a ribbon (they come with motherboards).

If a 2nd hard drive uses it's own IDE ribbon cable then it should be set as master. If you connect the 2nd hard drive to the same IDE ribbon cable that your primary cable uses, then you set it as slave.

It's also possible to set the hard drives as "cable select" ... ie the hd at the end of the cable will assume it's the master and the one two thirds down the cable will assume it's the slave.

I'm assuming you already have an IDE hard drive and some sort of cd rom drive? Do both of them use the one IDE ribbon cable or do they have one each? ... if one each then you probably only have two IDE slots on your motherboard anyway, so then you'd just connect up your new hd as a slave (on the same IDE cable as your primary hd).

I'd bet if you googled you could get some clear instructions with pictures and everything.

Now, your primary hard drive, if it's an IDE, is hda ("a" if it's plugged into your 1st IDE slot on you motherboard) and you might have partitions hda1 and hda2 etc. If you use a slave on the same cable then it is recognised by linux as hdb. If it has its own cable (2nd IDE slot on your motherboard) then it's hdc if it's master, or hdd if it's a slave.

ie:
IDE1 master = hda
IDE1 slave = hdb
IDE2 master = hdc
IDE2 slave = hdd

So if you plug your 2nd hd in as a slave on the same cable as your primary hd, then you'd add it to your /etc/fstab ... eg if you formatted it as one big partition as reiserfs, then you'd add:
Code:
/dev/hdb1       /media/hdb1     reiserfs defaults        0       2


Remember to partition and format your hard drive while it's unmounted. So for the 1st time you physically install it and boot up, it isn't in /etc/fstab and that's exactly what you want, as you don't want it mounted yet. You don't need the live cd, as you'd only need the live cd if you were trying to format you hda (ie you can't boot up on hda and format it as it's mounted). But you aren't trying to format hda (and make sure you don't!). So you can use gparted or cfdisk on your normal boot. I use cfdisk (although I've heard good things about gparted).

So if your new hd is hdb, then I'd partition it with:
Code:
sux
cfdisk /dev/hdb

... if you only want one big partition then create hdb1 (you want type = 83). I think there's even a cfdisk howto on kanotix.com somewhere?

Then after you've finished partitioning the new hd, you need to format it ...
(for reiser 3.6):
Code:
mkreiserfs /dev/hdb1
or (for ext3):
Code:
mke2fs -j /dev/hdaX


You should be able to mount it manually now, eg:
Code:
mount /dev/hdb1 /media/hdb1

Now you can add the appropriate line in the fstab and on boot it'll be auto-mounted on boot.

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Swynndla
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 27.10.2006, 00:51 Uhr



Anmeldung: 05. Dez 2005
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fatbloke ... I've a believer is doing things the simplest of ways at first even though it might not be the "best". When you have your storage set up (whether it's an external or internal drive etc) then don't use rdiff-backup or anything fancy just yet. Especially if you only want to backup some sounds and photos etc that you own (I'm talking about linux file permisions here .. ie when you do "ls -lh" then it shows you as the user who is the owner of the files). Just copy them to a directory on the other hard drive that you own ... done, backed up.

Don't get me wrong ... I thing rdiff-backup is the best thing ever in linux! ... but one thing at a time is always a good idea.

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stryder
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 27.10.2006, 01:01 Uhr



Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
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FB, rarely do you find accessories that specify themselves as linux compatible. The external enclosures that most people here use are usb-based rather than via ethernet. See dwa's post. These are usually easily recognised by linux.

Swynddla's suggestion of a second HD is also simple enough.

Backing up to a share should not be a problem but you will need to troubleshoot to figure out why you have those problems you mentioned. And that will probably mean looking under the hood (linux-wise). I get the impression you'd rather avoid that. Smilie
 
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Swynndla
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 27.10.2006, 01:07 Uhr



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ethernet external drive did you say fatbloke? ... if the disk is attached via ethernet then it would have to have some form of server in the way to provide ... ie something that provides the disk via, ftp, nfs, samba, aoe ... ie like a 2nd pc ... so I'm not sure how an ethernet external drive would work without part of it being a computer? That sounds expensive?

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2radical
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 27.10.2006, 04:18 Uhr



Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
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Swyndlla: That is perfect. Thanks for the info. Now I know exactly what to do. My primary HD is IDE, although I'm using ext3 this time. I'll set the 2nd one as slave, set up on the same cable. Thanks for the code:
mke2fs -j /dev/hdaX I was unaware of the command to format.
I have 2 cd drives one is a dvd/RW, the other one I just use for playing audio cd's, data, etc.
The only prob now is when I tried to print your post (with 2 apps) nothing appears! I know the freakin cartridge isn't empty , so now I have to figger that out. AAARRRGH!
DU madness...But thanks for the info, my friend.

Kurt

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fatbloke
Titel:   BeitragVerfasst am: 27.10.2006, 13:01 Uhr



Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
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Swynndla hat folgendes geschrieben::
ethernet external drive did you say fatbloke? ... if the disk is attached via ethernet then it would have to have some form of server in the way to provide ... ie something that provides the disk via, ftp, nfs, samba, aoe ... ie like a 2nd pc ... so I'm not sure how an ethernet external drive would work without part of it being a computer? That sounds expensive?

Well not actually I already have the hard drive, and the cases that I'm looking at are about the £50 mark - these ones are basically what I was looking at - the only problem is that they use either over priced or crappy delivery services (aimed at businesses I suspect).

Yes, some of them do seem to mention internal servers of various types - plus, my rather archaic system only has 4 USB ports (USB 1.1) and stuffs all plugged into it (I suppose that it might be possible to unplug one, do the backup and reconnect).

I'm guessing that it really means that I'll have to buy one and see what happens. Hence my quest to find out if anyone has experience of them.

Plus, for data transfer, as far as I can see, the ethernet standard is far, far superior to USB (which looks like it was just invented to make life easy for windows users).

Oh well, I suppose I'll have to "suck it and see".

regards

fatbloke
 
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fatbloke
Titel: Gone and "dunnit"!  BeitragVerfasst am: 27.10.2006, 13:22 Uhr



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I've gone and ordered this one so when I've got it set up (fingers crossed) I'll post back and let you know how it's going.

TVM for all the replies everyone. Much appreciated.

regards

fatbloke
 
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h2
Titel: RE: Gone and "dunnit"!  BeitragVerfasst am: 27.10.2006, 20:21 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
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Swynddla, that's network attached storage, NAS, prices are really dropping, basically what that is is a box, usually running linux, that you just plugin to the the network, usually with some raid configuration choices, running samba and supporting a variety of network protocols, but it's basically plug and play, like a router for example, login through web interface, configure raid stuff, then it's ready to go. Not as expensive as you might think.

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New: rdiff-backup script
 
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Swynndla
Titel: RE: Gone and "dunnit"!  BeitragVerfasst am: 27.10.2006, 20:34 Uhr



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Ahhh yea, it looks as though you'll be able to mount that as a samba share. I see that you can ftp to it too. Also it says fat filesystem (appears the only filesystem you can have?) so you'll have to format your drive as fat32. That's ok if it's just for songs files and videos etc. I'm not sure if rdiff-backup can handle putting backups on fat32 (I would guess rdiff-backup needs ext3 or reiserfs).

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fatbloke
Titel: Re: RE: Gone and "dunnit"!  BeitragVerfasst am: 28.10.2006, 00:06 Uhr



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Swynndla hat folgendes geschrieben::
Ahhh yea, it looks as though you'll be able to mount that as a samba share. I see that you can ftp to it too. Also it says fat filesystem (appears the only filesystem you can have?) so you'll have to format your drive as fat32. That's ok if it's just for songs files and videos etc. I'm not sure if rdiff-backup can handle putting backups on fat32 (I would guess rdiff-backup needs ext3 or reiserfs).

Well there'll be enough room on the external HDD (320 gigs) for multiple backups, so once I've done 2 or 3, I can then start deleting the older ones.

And yes, it's mainly for music, pictures, documents and the various /home config files etc. Hell, if it was for anything business like/mission critical, the business would be paying for a "proper" NAS setup and a suitably qualified Linux Administrator for it Sehr glücklich

I'll post how I get on.

regards

fatbloke
 
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h2
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Gone and "dunnit"!  BeitragVerfasst am: 28.10.2006, 01:38 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
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I'm sure you can reformat the drive, don't worry. Fat32 isn't a particularly good option unless you must use it for both linux and windows. That's probably just what it comes with by default, but since fat32 doesn't support large files at all, isn't journaled, and doesn't support much else, like advanced file attributes etc, it's not a particularly good option. See if you can reformat it.

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Swynndla
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Gone and "dunnit"!  BeitragVerfasst am: 28.10.2006, 02:21 Uhr



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h2 ... I meant the external case he's going to buy:
http://www.span.com/catalog/product_inf ... ts_id=5486
only talks about supporting fat filesystem?

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fatbloke
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Gone and "dunnit"!  BeitragVerfasst am: 04.11.2006, 19:47 Uhr



Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
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well the case has finally arrived.

Not that that makes any difference, it's taken me all afternoon to work out how to get anything seeing the damn thing. It's currently connected via USB (1.1) and I can now see it as /dev/sda1 if I do
Code:
fdisk -l


So if I then try to see what I get with fdisk /dev/sda1 it gives me the list of possible options, none of which, actually mean anything to me.

Nothing "comes to mind" etc.

So I'm still stuck as to how to get the damn thing configured.

It's supposed to have a nice, easy browser interface, but that also makes bog all difference, as I can't even get the damn thing running with my partners W98SE thinkpad - it doesn't give me any real clues, it seems to take the provided W98 USB2 driver, but as the lappy is usb 1.1 it's just telling me that "theres a problem" (how bloody helpful windows is!).

Any ideas ? (or even good links as to how I use fdisk)

regards

fatbloke

p.s. erm it does actually have a default IP, but if I connect the swine via ethernet (my prefered option) the browser just gives me a series of errors and I don't have any idea of what I need to do to change the default to my usual IP range etc etc.
 
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h2
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Gone and "dunnit"!  BeitragVerfasst am: 04.11.2006, 20:07 Uhr



Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
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gparted will see it fine. USB 1 is going to be very slow though. If for some weird reason the kanotix version doesn't do it, try using the livecd, either kanotix or the gparted one. Both should have no problem locating a usb drive.

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Read more on dist-upgrades using du-fixes-h2.sh script.
New: rdiff-backup script
 
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kenyee
Titel: RE: Re: RE: Gone and "dunnit"!  BeitragVerfasst am: 04.11.2006, 20:36 Uhr



Anmeldung: 21. Jan 2006
Beiträge: 185

if your laptop has a firewire port, you should get an external drive enclosure w/ firewire support. It's faster than USB 2.0 despite what theoretical specs say. USB 1.1 will be glacial...
 
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